Criterion on the Burnout Demo
December 22nd, 2007 at 2:14 pm
A note from Alex Ward and the Burnout Team has popped up on the game’s official site.
It always weirds me out when developers speak frankly and defensively about the decisions they’ve made, mostly because you rarely get to see it. By the time a developer’s anger is made known throughout the company, a PR person has usually taken him/her aside and said “look, let us do the talking, OK?” So it’s refreshing and even a little shocking when someone lets loose with a little “you people just don’t get it” sort of frustration. And that’s how this note comes across to me.
I don’t have too much to say on the subject because, for the most part, I agree with the sentiment and the notes reflect most of my thoughts and feelings on the demo. Except for one, the lack of a retry function.
If you’ll allow me to play “armchair game developer” for a moment, that’s one gameplay-friendly concession that I feel would be worth a loading screen. While you can do anything in any order, I’m the type of guy that’ll take on one event and do it again and again until I get it right. If I keep screwing up and I’m halfway across the city, that means I’m going to turn around, tail between my legs, and cruise back to the start of the event for another go.
In GTA, I’d save before each mission. When I’d shoot the wrong guy or whatever, I could just reload and try again. It wouldn’t start you right at the mission start when you reloaded, but you’d at least keep your weapons and armor, preventing you from having to run around the world and rearm yourself after dying. Eventually, they implemented “trip skip” to let you bypass long, uneventful drives that you had already completed on a past attempt. It’s not about avoiding things that take you out of the experience, it’s about making sure that players are spending more time with the good stuff.
Of course, even idle driving in Burnout is more exciting than stealing a car and driving back to the start of a GTA mission, so I could be completely wrong. Either way, the anticipation is killing me and we’re still a full month away, damn it.
December 22nd, 2007 at 2:28 pm
Yeah the one major bummer regarding Paradise is how long it takes to get back to an event that you failed. Often times you find yourself driving half way across the map. I sense frustration in our near futures…Burnout is still hella fun though.
December 22nd, 2007 at 2:34 pm
That’s an interesting release by them – it reads more like a defensive forum post than an official blurb.
December 22nd, 2007 at 2:36 pm
The developers have the right to defend their own opinion by themselves, afterall they are the ones doing the game, not the PR people.
December 22nd, 2007 at 2:39 pm
i think the game is fun regardless, but one question? what system do i get it for the ps3 or the 360?? i played the demo on both but im still undecided.
ill wait to bitch when i play the full game though
December 22nd, 2007 at 3:15 pm
Yeah, this drove me nuts having to drive all the way back. A restart/retry function is much needed.
December 22nd, 2007 at 3:20 pm
Yeah, the biggest thing and maybe the only one that will bug me while playing it is the lack of a replay function.
December 22nd, 2007 at 3:24 pm
It doesn’t bother me, i fid when im playin burnout games and feel like givin up coz iv just crash ino a wall i go on to win it anyway, a replay function seems to me to be unnecessary in a game of this nature. So the lesson is if you lose… you need more practise now try harder!
December 22nd, 2007 at 3:50 pm
Yeah it weirds me out too, and im the same, i will constantly retry every 5 seconds when i scew up or i just dont feel right, and i agree with that it would be worth a loading screen, and its about making sure that players are spending more time with the good stuff.
then again thats the only thing im bothered about, and its just one thing
December 22nd, 2007 at 4:00 pm
Yeh that was the only thing I could see a problem with. They say to cut out loading times but, a couple of seconds loading on a retry is nothing.
Unless the loading is as bad as skate was. To retry did take a long time unless you where close to that point. It’s a shame they aren’t fixing it as its the only bad thing about it.
December 22nd, 2007 at 4:40 pm
I had a hard time liking the demo. Mostly because… it was a demo. The type of game they’ve created seems really ill-suited for a demo, and I kept getting hung up on the limitations. Plus, the lack of any soundtrack songs and a retry option made it fairly dull.
But whatever, the full game will be stellar and the walls will come down. But no retry option? Seriously? I guess their idea is that the game world is more than just a hub, it’s canvas for the gameplay. That’s cute, but I think they’re selling this as way more unique than it really is. They want people to be free and do their own thing, but in removing the retry option it seems like they’re forcing people to explore and have it “YOUR” way.
And if that isn’t enough, DJ Automica and the King will be sure to remind us.
December 22nd, 2007 at 4:43 pm
Am I the only person who gets really annoyed by the mini-map not rotating when you turn in the vehicle? It makes it so much harder to tell where you’re going. Its really preventing me from enjoying the demo.
December 22nd, 2007 at 4:59 pm
i’m not sure what the big deal is. the game will sell tons even if some people dont like the demo. if reviews and word of mouth re great, people will buy it.
December 22nd, 2007 at 5:51 pm
First, welcome back Jeff, I am glad I found your blog.
And I agree the new Burnout game has issues, will you be offering reviews on here? I would apreciate your opinion.
December 22nd, 2007 at 5:59 pm
If a game like Stuntman had no replay feature, then I’d be worried. I don’t think it’s necessary for a game like Burnout to have it, though, simply because you aren’t doomed immediately when you make a mistake. You can continue racing after a crash or a wrong turn or whatever, which is part of what makes the series so much fun.
As for Alex’s “note”, I think it’s refreshing to hear the opinion of someone who knows what they’re talking about, someone on the dev team as opposed to some PR guy.
December 22nd, 2007 at 7:18 pm
Apparently Alex does this a lot; he’s constantly complaining about gamers and the like on the Burnout Podcast (I haven’t listened myself, so you know, whatever).
I dunno. I think he’s allowed to voice his opinion on what us consumers think of his product, but not publically. Spitting in the eye of somebody of whom you’re trying to make BUY your game is not the best business model in the world. Yeah, that’s great, Alex. You like your game. But that’s not going to pay the bills, is it?
Any developer worth their salt knows when to say, “I might like this, but my consumers don’t, so I have to change it.” – that’s not to say they should always listen to consumers, but knowing when to agree and when to disagree is a major faucet of proper game balance.
I enjoyed the Paradise demo, but if Alex is going to be a jerk about it… well, it’s not like I’ll keel over dead by missing out on Burnout Paradise.
December 22nd, 2007 at 8:21 pm
I’m going to come out and say it: BP’s lack of a restart feature is dumb. The game is great otherwise! I found Criterion’s reason for not putting it in the game pretty stupid.
December 22nd, 2007 at 9:06 pm
Its hard to strike a balence between realism and entertainment values when designing – and computer games will always contain an element of “fantasy” (however mundane that fantasy may be) and this of course is half the appeal to the consumer.
Also we sometimes forget the amount of time that goes into these decisions – we may not like them, but they have been introduced for a reason, and just like everything else in life it wont appeal to everyone.
I am also enthused by the response of the developers – I accept the points he is making but also belive its great that he is so passionate about his game – an indicator that there is something special in the works…
December 22nd, 2007 at 11:14 pm
I think I’m a little torn on the open-world thing, though I do like the change of pace. The problem is that much like with the newer Tony Hawk games, I tend to lose interest and sort roam about aimlessly, not really enjoying myself, but still having some odd mental compulsion to keep tooling around going off ramps for no reason.
December 23rd, 2007 at 12:29 am
I can understand trying to defend the demo against criticism, but wow. Alex Ward verbally assaulted some segments of his target audience.
“If you don’t like it, tough.”
This isn’t a fight between a parent and a child, and Alex sounds just like an angry father talking down to his children.
December 23rd, 2007 at 12:49 am
Alex Ward is one of my most highly respected Game Devs. for sure and if he makes a decision I am 100% sure he knows what hes doing. I´m not even going to speculate on development decisions before Jan. 24th.
December 23rd, 2007 at 5:41 am
“retry would have introduced loading into the game, which we didn’t want to do”
This is probably the stupidest thing I’ve read in a while. By the time you reach the start of the challenge you just failed, the game would have had the time to load it about 20 times. That’s ridiculous…
If you realy want to make a game that I can experience the way I want to, just let me choose to hit retry !
December 23rd, 2007 at 6:11 am
Jeff I don’t know which GTA you were playing, or if you got it confused with Saint’s Row.
But you can’t save anywhere in GTA. You have to go to a local safehouse that you either have to get in the storyline, or somehow have enough money to buy it yourself.
December 23rd, 2007 at 6:29 am
I am by no stretch of the imagination a Burnout fan but I can’t wait for this game to turn up. As for the ‘note’, it was pretty cool; I mean, he doesn’t really fly off the handle or anything. I wish developers talked to fans directly like this more often. Although, it can be tough, especially when you get a lot of ‘omg open world burnout rotflmao’ type comments.
I’m just heartbroken I can’t play the demo. Being back home for Christmas means it’s all DS and return to the WOW addiction for me. Damn X360 and overseas luggage restrictions. And power currents. And…. and so on.
December 23rd, 2007 at 6:33 am
While I’ve really been enjoying the BP demo, I’m certain that the lack of a retry feature is going to bug many, many game players. And this cavalier attitude from Alex Ward is not helping. I’m the type of guy that likes to try for all the medals/achievements assuming they are realistic, and you just know there’s gonna be some kind of massive endurance challenge in this game. Crashing out on the fourth minute of that is really going to try my patience. And I agree, the map should rotate.
But all in all, I will still be buying it. No game is perfect.
December 23rd, 2007 at 9:17 am
I encourage Alex Ward and other game designers to directly respond to player complaints–though you would think that EA would have put something in place to prevent it after the “gun porn” incident–but that doesn’t mean I have to agree.
Accidentally going off course in the middle of a race (which is easy in an open-world game) or searching for things to perform stunts off of rather than performing stunts and then spending several minutes driving back to the starting point to try again mean that I am often not experiencing speed and destruction in a game that is supposed to be all about speed and destruction.
I am not saying that Paradise should have been a better looking Revenge with different courses and new cars, but I do not like the direction that Ward is taking the Burnout series in either.
December 23rd, 2007 at 10:10 am
They could easily have gotten around their peculiar and vicious hatred for loading screens whilst simultaneously lavishing freedom and choice on the player, by letting the player decide for themselves whether they want to retry or not. The player could pause the game after they’ve irreparably banjoed their chances, and choose either to stop the event or retry. The player only sees a loading screen if they want to.
I can see the lack of a retry option being a total pain in the arse.
December 23rd, 2007 at 12:28 pm
I really hope burnout will be awesome. I know you already said this but in the full version their had better be a restart event button the pause screen, otherwise this game is going to be crazy frustrating.
December 23rd, 2007 at 12:38 pm
You guys are all missing that “driving to the start of the event again” also means “doing loads and loads of stuff along the way that is so awesome that you might even end up doing something completely different and coming back to thar challenge later”. Whats with the retry hysteria. Take in the city, do some power parking, perfect those barrel rolls, find some shortcuts, try some showtime, go online and takedown some friends, THEN try your beloved challenge again. Stop thinking inside the box all the time. Dont be afraid of some change. This game is not meant to be played that way. If you want to drive 1 premade race, fail, hit restart, try again, hit restart, try again, hit restart. go play ANOTHER frikkin racinggame. geez.. “Oh my god, I need to be able to restart the same challenge over and over again when I have a whole city to do what I want in”. I´m sorry. I just think the arguments for why you need a Restart last challenge button in Paradise are silly and comes from thinking only from a “I want it to be like it has always been” perspective wich pretty much only comes from people afraid of playing in a new way..
December 23rd, 2007 at 1:45 pm
The fact that they’re getting so defensive makes the game seem less promising to me. We’ll see.
December 23rd, 2007 at 1:54 pm
Of course, I might be pleasantly surprised and find that the lack of a restart isn’t really an issue at all, but it seems like a pretty signficant issue at the moment. I suppose we’ll find out soon enough.
December 23rd, 2007 at 8:55 pm
Can’t wait to download the demo. this looks amazing, I’ve been following it for a couple of months. The lack of retry won’t bother me at all. If I fail a challenge I’ll just screw around for a while and try antoher one.
December 23rd, 2007 at 10:27 pm
I’m not a big fan of the open world anymore, sure it was cool with the GTA games but I’ve grown weary of the openness of it all. I just want to skip the sandbox and get to the slide.
December 24th, 2007 at 12:49 am
I totally agree, and I do the exact same thing. I keep attempting a mission until I complete it, I’m not going to drive around do other ones when I know I’m stuck on a particular one.
And same here regarding the GTA save-reload stuff. Doing mundane things like driving to a start of a mission and then starting it over and over again is not my definition of fun.
December 24th, 2007 at 9:02 am
Hi Jeff . Didnt know where to post this , But I hope youre doing well and keep doing well . Happy holidays , Merry christmas and happy new year . I know the year didnt end well , But im wishing you the best to come
December 24th, 2007 at 3:52 pm
Yea i totally agree about the lack of retry. Sure having this constantly streaming enviroment was possibly somthing they had as a goal from early in development, but i think its worth giving the player the option to break the experience themselves. Especially given racing games are notorious for making the player repeat objectives. I think you can file this under “taking away simple options from gamers makes them angry”. OH and Happy Christmas nearly. /giddy
December 24th, 2007 at 5:39 pm
I know exactly what you mean Jeff, Playing that game without a retry button is going to be a REAL PAIN. I need a retry/save’n'load button in every game to survive! I went through entire games like Max Payne without barely getting shot by quick saving and loading!! However; that will NOT stop me from playing this game because I truley belive that these guys at Criterion know what they’re doing.
Funny thing is, Before I even downloaded the demo or tried it for myself, The first thing that came to my mind when I found out that they were going to do an open world game is that it’s gonna be TDU but with damage and explosions (TDU meets Burnout basicly). I was really surprised to see Alex addressing this notion head on. Anyways, It doesn’t matter because I really like TDU.
December 25th, 2007 at 10:55 am
I’ve been playing the Burnout demo a lot and the lack of a retry option is a bit annoying. I just assumed one would be there but pausing the game and searching for the option was all for naught.
Hopefully they’ll add the function in the official release.
December 25th, 2007 at 3:00 pm
The only problem I see is with companies now trying make every game of theirs and “open-world” experience. Why? Not every game has to be open world to enjoy it. It’s ironic they tout they’re “doing something new” with the gameplay when open-world games are nothing new in themselves. Ever since GTA3 games have been copying that equation ad nausem. My point is just because games are structured and devs. “tell you what to do” doesn’t mean it’s a bad thing. I’m just afraid that this whole open-world thing will get out of hand.
December 25th, 2007 at 3:02 pm
And I almost forgot, Merry Christmas, Jeff
December 26th, 2007 at 12:40 pm
After reading the linked article I felt the need to send an actual supportive email to Criterion to thank them for what they are doing with the Burnout series and with Paradise. It’s a shame that it’s usually only the negative voices that speak up and those of us that are happy with the product (be it a demo or whatever) usually just enjoy it but don’t express that enjoyment to the developers. I’d encourage anyone who enjoyed the demo to write a positive email to Criterion so they can hear some praise occasionally. It must be incredibly hard to be a developer and only really ever hear why the game you are making is wrong and is going to suck.
January 1st, 2008 at 4:55 pm
Yeah, the lack of a replay function really bugged me. I hevan’t played the demo for ages, ‘cos of that.
January 2nd, 2008 at 5:37 pm
I agree. Sure, they didn’t want to introduce loading into the game, but to remove the option entirely just because of that belief, now that’s just unfair. You’re leaving out a major part of the game, something all Burnout vets have come to hold close to their heart.
January 14th, 2008 at 7:29 pm
The lack of the retry is just dumb. It makes the demo so much more frustrating! I guess I will get the game anyways, but it’s really unfortunate that they don’t cause it makes the game SO much less user-friendly.